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My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins....
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TOPIC: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins....

My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5139

  • jkheycke
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I got a set of Rotor Q-rings ([url:2mirg0h6]www.rotorcranksusa.com/inquire_qrings.htm[/url]) yesterday. Here are some first impressions:

* I was a little puzzled that they're not available in 54-56T, since they're supposed to be the biggest help for mashers like me.

* Installation was a little more finicky than expected. The inner ring doesn't fit over the SRM spider, so you have to take the whole crank out (not that big a deal with a DA 7800).

* FD adjustment was interesting. After positioning the FD to clear the big ring, the chain rubbed the bottom of the cage in the 40x12,13,14 combos, and even in 40x15 when there was slack (e.g. backpedaling).

* The feel when riding them is much more subtle than I expected. If I were blindfolded, I'm not sure I could tell which chainrings I was using.

* I only did a super-easy ride on them today, but my totally subjective sense is that I do have more power at certain points, for the same level of exertion. In particular, there are several rollers that I typically downshift near the top of; today I felt pretty comfortable just powering over them.

I'll keep y'all posted as I continue testing them.

--jens

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5140

  • Ashburn
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jkheycke wrote:
* FD adjustment was interesting.


Your "F" and "D" were replaced with Kraig's auto-replace text feature. I assume you meant "front derrailleur." I guess we're not allowed to string those two letters together, or someone's search bot will track down the reference.

Anyway -- looking forward to your thoughts. I've been tempted to try those rings myself.

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5142

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Ashburn wrote:
jkheycke wrote:
* FD adjustment was interesting.


Your "F" and "D" were replaced with Kraig's auto-replace text feature. I assume you meant "front derrailleur." I guess we're not allowed to string those two letters together, or someone's search bot will track down the reference.

Anyway -- looking forward to your thoughts. I've been tempted to try those rings myself.


The FD was actually from my own lazy typing feature.

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5146

  • Ashburn
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jkheycke wrote:

The FD was actually from my own lazy typing feature.

Sometime between when I first read your post and when I typed my reply, "someone" altered something. I think our host is quietly active behind the scenes. )

"FD" was earlier replaced with "brand-x crank gizmo inventor" -- and we all know who that is.

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5147

  • thorman
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So what's your test protocol going to be? Did you do some testing before installing the new rings?

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5148

  • jkheycke
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thorman wrote:
So what's your test protocol going to be? Did you do some testing before installing the new rings?


Protocol? I'm not even going to pretend to be scientific about this. I just put a speedplay leg-length discrepancy shim on one cleat and installed a new chain, so any benefits I observe might come from that.

I'll probably see what power I can hold my 2x20s and an 18min hillclimb at, a few times with the Qrings and then regular rings.

I don't really have a good baseline, since I've been using 56-42 chainrings, which change gearing and, possibly, drivetrain efficiency.

- Jens

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5150

  • bikeage
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Jens,

Do you need a 54-56 chainring with Q-rings? Don't you effectively increase/decrease chainring size at certain positions?

From the Rotor website: "(just passed the maximum power moment), the equivalent chainring tooth size reaches 56T." You'd still have to pedal faster...but only during the dead spot.

Interested to hear more testing feedback.

Regards, Jason
The SRM Experts
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Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5151

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jkheycke wrote:
Protocol? I'm not even going to pretend to be scientific about this. - Jens

I'm mainly interested in the subjective conclusions (if any). I have this hunch that something like those rings or the Rotor cranks aren't so much about improving power, in a pure sense. I think they might fall into that category of things that some people just prefer. Kind of like saddles or shoes or whatever.

Something tells me I would like those chainrings. But I want someone else to jump in the pool first. )

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5152

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got a mail from Howie at Rotorbike today. Bigger Q-Rings are on their way!

...
Yes, larger Q-Rings will be available in a few months.
We are not yet decided to make them Aero or regular.
The 53T Q-Ring becomes a 56T at the maximum power position.
A 54T will become a 57T + at the maximum power position.
The position of the front derailleur becomes an issue on frames where
the
f/derailleur does not have a sliding band; as with TT bikes.
Many thanks for your input.
...

Hope they go aero because my TT bike's FD has a sliding band and I don't care about anyone else

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5153

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I've been using Q rings since october. I borrowed a prototype set which I used at Spain's Long Distance Triathlon Championship where I finished third and earned a sponsorship from Rotor.

Just as Jens, I didn't feel much of a difference, but I PRed ALL my training benchmark routes and climbs after two week with them. I didn't have a powermeter then.

I just installed my new SRM I don't think I will be able to get any valid data, as I dont plan to go back to round rings, and all the prior power data i have comes from a polar.

My feelings are:

I climb much better both in and out of the saddle

I run better after biking

I use more my glutes/hamstrings (this might be also because I moved my saddle back)

The negatives:

front derrailleur installation a bit tricky

more often chain drops (maybe not suited for crit racers....)

If anyone is interested in buying them in europe e-mail me to alvaro153 at gmail dot com, a buddie of mine is a dealer.

cheers, alvaro

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5155

  • jkheycke
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bikeage wrote:
Jens,

Do you need a 54-56 chainring with Q-rings? Don't you effectively increase/decrease chainring size at certain positions?

Regards, Jason


Jason:

Yes it does effectively increase/decrease the size, but the net effect is that a 53 is still a 53. So I found myself spinning out coming down hill.


-jens

Some early &quot;data&quot;......​ 8 years, 8 months ago #5194

  • jkheycke
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With the Q-rings this yesterday, I managed to do my best set of 2x20s (by 7 watts) in over a month. Today, I tried an old benchmark test of mine: 30 min with avg HR of 100 on a flat CT course. The average power was 6 watts higher than my all-time record at that HR.

Again, I'm not going to pretend that this is the least bit scientific. One thing I've noticed in the past is that just about any setup change can give me a transitory gain in power. Presumably this is because it shifts some of the effort to parts of muscles that weren't overworked from training in the old setup.


-- jens

And a question for current q-ring users.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5195

  • jkheycke
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After riding today, I decided to change the regulation points from the recommended starting point (3) to 4. It seems like this makes more sense for riding in a TT position. I'm thinking that, with a '0' setback, I probably apply more power later in the pedal stroke than I would in a conventional road position. Does that make sense?


-jens

Re: And a question for current q-ring users.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5199

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jkheycke wrote:
After riding today, I decided to change the regulation points from the recommended starting point (3) to 4. It seems like this makes more sense for riding in a TT position. I'm thinking that, with a '0' setback, I probably apply more power later in the pedal stroke than I would in a conventional road position. Does that make sense?


-jens


I ride with 3cm setback at 70cm height. I changed the regulation from 3 to 1 and liked it better. After this change is when I really noticed an improvement when climbing.

From what I spoke with the developers of the product, I believe it's a very individual thing, just try the and go with what feel best.

Hey, I'm just remembering that Gary Tinley reported he's climbing better than ever in the thread about his training program, Isn't he using Q rings??

alvaro

Re: And a question for current q-ring users.... 8 years, 8 months ago #5202

  • gtingley
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alvarov wrote:
jkheycke wrote:
After riding today, I decided to change the regulation points from the recommended starting point (3) to 4. It seems like this makes more sense for riding in a TT position. I'm thinking that, with a '0' setback, I probably apply more power later in the pedal stroke than I would in a conventional road position. Does that make sense?


-jens


I ride with 3cm setback at 70cm height. I changed the regulation from 3 to 1 and liked it better. After this change is when I really noticed an improvement when climbing.

From what I spoke with the developers of the product, I believe it's a very individual thing, just try the and go with what feel best.

Hey, I'm just remembering that Gary Tinley reported he's climbing better than ever in the thread about his training program, Isn't he using Q rings??

alvaro

As the owner of [url:ak5qcsy5]www.RotorCranks.com[/url], I'm biased, so out of respect to the corporate-free nature of this forum, I am remaining neutral and purposely not contributing to this thread. If you have specific questions, you can PM me or email me offline. Thanks.

Some curious spinscam numbers..... 8 years, 7 months ago #5232

  • jkheycke
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I did the first few rides with the Q-rings on the CT with Spinscan on. This had some weird results.

I've never really tracked this, but normally I think my Spinscan numbers are around 60 for both legs. With the Q-rings, the right leg averages in the low 70s and the left leg in the 50s. The ATA is similarly skewed: around 110 for the right leg and 100 for the left. Curiously, the power balance is pretty close to even. I'm not sure what to make of this.......


--jens

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 7 months ago #5237

  • rmur
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was the SpinscaM Freudian?

rick
GIZMO marketing specialist

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 7 months ago #5239

  • bikeage
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I'll bite. I ordered some Q-rings yesterday. I'll do some standardized runs on my SRM Trainer and sample with torque analysis to see what the differences are. I'm also going to rotate the rings to the "wrong" position and see what the torque is like. I'll post the data when done.

Cheers, Jason
The SRM Experts
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me too... 8 years, 7 months ago #5266

  • pritchet74
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I just order a set. If someone gets a good testing protocol down then I will try to duplicate it. I kind of like Jens' low HR test on a CT course. Perhaps the theory that the improvement could be attributed to using fresh muscles has merit. If so then the q-rings could be a race only setup.

Meanwhile, I await for my new rings to get here. My wife is going to kill me. I had better starting thinking about what I am going to get her for Christmas....

Perhaps a set of Dugast silk tubulars. Wait, she doesn't ride a bike...

Re: Some early &quot;data&quot;......​ 8 years, 7 months ago #5269

  • bob tobin
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jkheycke wrote:
With the Q-rings this yesterday, I managed to do my best set of 2x20s (by 7 watts) in over a month. Today, I tried an old benchmark test of mine: 30 min with avg HR of 100 on a flat CT course. The average power was 6 watts higher than my all-time record at that HR.

Again, I'm not going to pretend that this is the least bit scientific. One thing I've noticed in the past is that just about any setup change can give me a transitory gain in power. Presumably this is because it shifts some of the effort to parts of muscles that weren't overworked from training in the old setup.


-- jens


If this is on an SRM have you checked the new rings havent altered the slope?

Bob
Bob tobin

Re: Some early &quot;data&quot;......​ 8 years, 7 months ago #5271

  • alvarov
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bob tobin wrote:


If this is on an SRM have you checked the new rings havent altered the slope?

Bob


how do you check that??

alvaro

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 7 months ago #5272

  • Kirk
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Does anyone notice a change in the force requirements needed to maintain cadence throughout the pedal circle for this brand of ovalized ring? (ie. harder on the down-stroke/up-stroke vs. top/bottom...depending on orientation)

Kirk

Re: Some early &quot;data&quot;......​ 8 years, 7 months ago #5273

  • bob tobin
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alvarov wrote:
bob tobin wrote:


If this is on an SRM have you checked the new rings havent altered the slope?

Bob


how do you check that??

alvaro


Follow the procedure for checking the slope on the SRM website. Basically hang known weights off the pedals with the cranks horizontal.

http://www.srm.de/Online_Manual/SRM_Eng ... ibrate.htm

I think it is possible different chainrings could alter the stiffness sufficiently to alter the slope. I think mine did. My team mate has just got some SRM Pros, he wants to fit a FSA solid chainring so I am going to calibrate before and afterwards to see what effect is has.

Bob
Bob tobin

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 7 months ago #5274

  • jkheycke
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Funny you should mention this. I did a couple of rides and then recalibrated the slope, which was still spot on.

However, I have noticed something curious.... at least a few times, the average power as calculated on the SRM software on my laptop has been 2 or 3 watts greater than on the SRM head unit. I don't recall it ever going up by more than 1 watt before. In fact, I didn't ever think it possible to be more than a rounding difference. I don't know if this has any significance. But it occurred to me that the q-rings might in some way be "fooling" the SRM by distributing torque differently.


-jens

Re: My Rotor Q-Ring experiment begins.... 8 years, 7 months ago #5275

  • bikeage
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I don't believe chainring stiffness can change the deformation characteristics of the bending members in the powermeter, and I've checked with different chainrings like a solid FSA 54T. If you believe this the test is to do the calibration on the small chainring and change the big rings (and I've done this too). I see calibration differences but they are as small as the difference you might see when calibrating the same powermeter on two different days. It will be interesting to see what Bill reports.

The difference could be in the stiffness of the whole system, affecting the precise torque that you are applying to the powermeter. We assume that the chain is parallel to the powermeter, and that the torque is perfectly normal with respect to gravity, but it's not totally the case when you hang a heavy weight of the end of a crank arm in a bicycle fixed to a bike stand.

I do believe that the power measurement could be different when using Q-Rings.

The SRM Factory calibration (in Germany) is essentially a static calibration where a constant torque is averaged at every point around the circumference of the powermeter.

The calibration check that most people do averages the torque at two points around the powermeter (left and right) - albeit at the places where we produce the majority of the torque when pedaling. IMHO, this is the most accurate way to calibrate your powermeter for cycling.

IF the Q-Rings change the location of peak torque application, or the duty cycle, or both, then it could be that you need to change the calibration technique of the powermeter.

Regards,
The SRM Experts
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