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20 MP
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TOPIC: 20 MP

20 MP 11 years ago #11100

  • psycholist
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OK ... I can't stand it anymore.

I've read the main site and I've searched the posts here. Will someone please explain the concept of 20 MP in laymans language? I've seen someone else asking the same question ... how does it translate into a training plan? It seems to be the hot thing everyone is talking about and, apparently, it's the hot thing everybody is doing ... but what is it you're doing?

Sorry if I missed something obvious. Thanks for any help.
Bob Chambers


"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts." T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11101

  • SteveB
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Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11102

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SteveB wrote:


Thanks,

I've read that twice now. I get it that LSD rides are out and training to maximize your 20MP are in. As another poster on another thread suggested, it would be nice to see a 20mp training plan laid out for a week or something like that. I believe Kraig said he'd work on something like that to get it up on the main site. I just thought that, in the interim, somebody who knew the drill could share a little about a real-life training plan.
Bob Chambers


"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts." T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

20 MP training 11 years ago #11104

I just posted a pretty detailed thread about what I did preparing for the Mt. Diablo Hill Climb ( http://biketechreview.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1026 ) Of course this is n=1, and even if I was coming off of a two month mono-induced rest, I also have the base of an experienced cat 1. I think that the volume of 20mp I was doing was more than the "base" recommended in the article of about 30 min total week, I was doing more like 60 to 90 min a week, depending. But I was also trying to peak, not to maintain and gradually build aerobic power. I can see where this would become part of the training over the winter, as well. I actually plan to include a little bit at least once a week over the winter, in addition to some longer rides so I can get used to eating that much freakin food on the bike again. But I'm not going to be as concernded as I used to be about cranking up the KJ's since I'll be building "base" with the 20 mp power work.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11105

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Sorry I blew off the specifics before.

Most of the people that I know who do some sort of training based upon this will do something similar to Justin and Kraig, two or three 20(+/-)MP workouts per week (2 or 3 intervals per day). Some people don't do tempo. I actually enjoy doing long blocks of tempo (I do 1-2 hours at 80-90% of 20MP without interruptions) and I'll try to do some once a week when it makes sense and I can fit it in. It's also great for burning calories!

I find it hard to push myself to put out more Watts without a long build-up (months of 20MP workouts) or a good taper; as far as I can tell, I seem to respond better to duration to build my fitness rather than just trying to go harder so instead of trying to get another 10 Watts (or whatever) out of myself in the 20 minute intervals, I'll try to complete a third fifteen or twenty minute interval. Eventually, they get easier, the power improves on that third block, and the power of the first twenty minute interval starts to rise too.

Also, two consecutive days of 20 minute intervals kicks my ass but I seem to respond to that as well.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11106

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I would also recommend talking to a qualified coach about this stuff because you might have unique needs.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11107

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I agree with SteveB that you may want to talk to a coach.

The idea of Base or 20MP is that you are spending large amount of training time at or around 20min power. You do this with intervals at threshold for about 20min and with VO2 max intervals. The result is a lowered amount of overall taining time, but higher amounts of time around your FT power. You then estimate the overall energy demands of a specific event, and add rides to increase your ability to complete the race, thus "filling the right" in Base speak.

Now I don't know if it's the "hot new thing", because there are a lot of coaches that don't adhere to this kind of a program (not a value judgement, just a statement of fact), and some people say you need a long-ish history of big miles before you can go to a reduced volume and increased 20MP interval kind of program. Personally I have no dog in the race (is that the term??), but I do believe that in the proper context it does work very well. OK so ask me what a chunk ride is???.... I have no idea.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11111

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bc909 wrote:


Now I don't know if it's the "hot new thing", because..


Me either, because...

It's not new!!!

The Perfect Mile: Three Athletes, One Goal, and Less Than Four Minutes To Achieve It
By Neal Bascomb, Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004

"
Bannister was a medical student and had very minimal time to train plus he often worked 12-16 hours per day.
Bannister’s ideal was that athletics, even for top athletes, should just be one part of a well-rounded, useful, and productive life

More than fifty years ago, Bannister using his scientific background realized that the way to properly train was to understand the stimulus responsible for improvements in fitness and performance for specific events and then to fine-tune workouts to produce some ‘overload’ but with minimal time required for recovery.


Bannister trained about 30 minutes most days of the week. Before his focused pursuit of the 4-minute mile, many of his runs in the country–side were long steady warm-ups to reach five or so minutes of running at a high level of perceived exertion. The runs, however, weren’t timed.

The lessons from Bannister’s training have been lost during the last 50 years. A top miler often trains for hours a day doing speed work and overdistance work.

"

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11112

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Oh, and...


"
The Perfect Mile is simply the most perfect book that I’ve ever read. Neal Bascomb is a terrific writer and here he weaves together a great story about Roger Bannister from England, John Landy from Australia, and Wes Santee from the United States in their pursuit more than 50 years ago of the sub 4-minute mile. It is compelling personalities, history, and details about training and racing all rolled into one incredible read. "

havent read it yet, but I will.
d.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11113

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For pure TT riders, this is certainly nothing new.

What is perhaps a new trend is applying lower volume /higher intensity training to seriously long events.

Looking at the energy systems involved, it does make perfect sense to raise the left(ish) first.

The real challenge here is understanding individual differences in what it takes to 'fill the right'.
If you are talking Elite performance in 250km+ races, filling the right may take years.

David.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11115

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DMC wrote:
bc909 wrote:


Now I don't know if it's the "hot new thing", because..


Me either, because...

It's not new!!!



DMC, you seem to be sensitive to this "new" term.

Is this interpretation of mine off the mark? If so, my apologies - if there is some truth to it, maybe you could explain your perspective on the topic of "new" and how it makes you feel in a bit more detail?
-kraig

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11116

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DMC wrote:


The real challenge here is understanding individual differences in what it takes to 'fill the right'.
If you are talking Elite performance in 250km+ races, filling the right may take years.


Yes, a worthy topic of thought. I'm open to the possibility that filling the right may not take years.

In the end, there are many possible ways to get the same result.

What are some of those "possibilities" that you've tried over the years?
-kraig

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11117

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kraig wrote:


I'm open to the possibility that filling the right may not take years.


IME, what takes years is learning how to apply one's ability within 200-250k mass-start events. I think that athletes over time primarily become more consistent in performing up to their abilities through super-computer experience (during a race and their daily lives), and it isn't necessarily anything physiological.

Kind of related...but I have not heard it explained...is how years of large volumes (as in what adaptation) somehow enable the success of a low volume training regimen which includes high intensity...or how a low volume regimen somehow deters progression. Maybe...folks who never do large volumes just get to their potential faster.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11119

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DMC wrote:
Oh, and...


"
The Perfect Mile is simply the most perfect book that I’ve ever read. Neal Bascomb is a terrific writer and here he weaves together a great story about Roger Bannister from England, John Landy from Australia, and Wes Santee from the United States in their pursuit more than 50 years ago of the sub 4-minute mile. It is compelling personalities, history, and details about training and racing all rolled into one incredible read. "

havent read it yet, but I will.
d.


Roger Bannister's son Thurstan is a super nice guy, a good cyclist, and a cycling fanatic. He (his company) sponsors the Sakonnet cycling team.

Kevin

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11133

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kraig wrote:

Maybe you could explain your perspective on the topic of "new" and how it makes you feel in a bit more detail?


I just find it amusing how trends go in these cycles, and with a new name, suddenly the forgotten old thing becomes the 'hot new thing'.

I would encourage people to read the OLDEST training books they can find. Even if there is some outdated junk, there is always some GEM that you won't find in new books.
Its incredible how many recent cycle training books are just recycling the same old faeces without adding anything new.

Granted 20MP is a new term enabled by power meters, but the concept of focusing on this level of training certainly isn't.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11136

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C.O.N.I. manual, 1968...nuff said

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11138

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DMC wrote:
kraig wrote:

Maybe you could explain your perspective on the topic of "new" and how it makes you feel in a bit more detail?


I just find it amusing how trends go in these cycles, and with a new name, suddenly the forgotten old thing becomes the 'hot new thing'.

I would encourage people to read the OLDEST training books they can find. Even if there is some outdated junk, there is always some GEM that you won't find in new books.
Its incredible how many recent cycle training books are just recycling the same old faeces without adding anything new.

Granted 20MP is a new term enabled by power meters, but the concept of focusing on this level of training certainly isn't.


Yeah...discussing this stuff is certaintly not about marketing or coining any hot new thing...its about discovering what really drives performance and discussing it in terms of power. If the stuff I've wrote here makes people take a critical look at things, I'll be pleased...and if it happens to support other ideas out there, that may indicate a common theme in what drives performance.

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11140

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nm87710 wrote:
C.O.N.I. manual, 1968...nuff said


What exactely in the CONI manual matches up?

Speaking of 20MP training... 11 years ago #11141

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I've been doing a little bit of it lately:


That's total rides including zeros (ave. IF: .96, TSS/day: 94). The body can do it. The mind requires an elaborate system of daily incentives.

I just started my taper for an event in a week. We'll see how that goes. After doing the above for a couple of months, my numbers are up 20% or so across the board from early summer, but that was going from very little training to a lot of training, so who knows what caused it.

Re: Speaking of 20MP training... 11 years ago #11149

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andy497 wrote:
I've been doing a little bit of it lately:
That's total rides including zeros (ave. IF: .96, training load gizmo/day: 94). The body can do it. The mind requires an elaborate system of daily incentives.

If I'm reading right, your typical workout is a little over an hour? A longer one here and there...2.5 hours, tops?

What is your event, if I may ask?

-- I ask because my riding consists entirely of 50-75 minute rides these days, and probably will until March or so. I've been hitting IF's of .90-.94, with a few pulls at 100% to 110% of 60MP.

Re: Speaking of 20MP training... 11 years ago #11151

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Ashburn wrote:

If I'm reading right, your typical workout is a little over an hour? A longer one here and there...2.5 hours, tops?

What is your event, if I may ask?


That's about right. Usually just under an hour. The days that look impossible (tss>100, IF~1) are actually half at lunch and half after work. Basically all 2x20s, 4x10s, 8x5s, 30 at threshold plus 10 V02ish, etc.

Event is a mtb race that should be only 2 to 2.5 hrs. I didn't really plan my intervals for it. My days were either go hard or go harder. I did a mtb ride of race distance and time a week or so ago (spike on chart) and decided I'd have no trouble completing that length.

For some perspective, an all out 20min ride in May of this year was about 205 watts, though I had seen 240-250 the season before. Last week I hit 290 (with -30 tsb), or 4 W/kg exactly.

Re: Speaking of 20MP training... 11 years ago #11157

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andy497 wrote:
The mind requires an elaborate system of daily incentives.

I can imagine.

Lets us know how it comes out. Once you're tapered and rested, you ought to be rocking and rolling. How does the power that you put out in the event compare to previous events (which you presumably trained for in a diferent manner)?

Re: Speaking of 20MP training... 11 years ago #11193

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andy497 wrote:
I've been doing a little bit of it lately:


I can't really tell much from that plot.

Is it possible for you to plot the time you accumulate at or above 20MP for each of these weeks?
-kraig

Re: Speaking of 20MP training... 11 years ago #11208

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kraig wrote:


I can't really tell much from that plot.
...


Yeah I guess it was open to interpretation. Maybe I can come up with a better graph. If it helps, almost all riding was steady-state on the trainer, each interval had p very close to virtual p. Nearly half of all 1sec samples last 28 days prior to race were above 60MP. The numbers are a little fuzzy, but I think I count 11.5% or about 3.5 hrs at/above my max 20MP for the same range.


The race (Iceman.com) went very well. I won my age group by about 15 minutes and was top beginner overall. It was billed as the largest single day mtb event in the world. About 2700 riders over 28 miles of rolling single track. The starting waves were spread over hours, but there were hordes on the trail with me. I think I would have gone faster if I didn't have to pass literally hundreds of riders over sometimes very tight terrain.

No amazing power numbers for road standards, but far and away my best power on the mtb:
Duration: 2:08:22
Work: 1843 kJ
TSS: 201.2 (intensity factor 0.97)
Norm Power: 255
VI: 1.07
Distance: 28.313 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 914 240 watts
Cadence: 31 141 96 rpm
Speed: 2.2 29.1 13.2 mph
Pace 2:04 26:49 4:32 min/mi
Hub Torque: 0 754 140 lb-in
Crank Torque: 0 884 218 lb-in

Re: 20 MP 11 years ago #11216

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training load gizmo: 201.2 (coasting biased number 0.97)
virtual Power: 255

This editing is utterly absurd.
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