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Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado?
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TOPIC: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado?

Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12784

  • Coolhand
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http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/art ... 504.0.html

Kim Blair, director of the MIT wind tunnel offered a presentation on aerodynamic research with bikes. He talked about drag and boundary layers and airflow, followed by how tunnel testing is accomplished at MIT and at other tunnels. When he got to the results section, many in the audience were taken aback by a water-bottle design from MIT graduate student, purportedly able to save 110 seconds over the course of a 40 kilometer time trial.


Anyone there and can put this in context. After some of the wacky stuff in the Bicycling article on the MIT tunnel guys I have been a bit skeptical of anything from them myself. But still I am curious.

Everything's coming up Milhouse!

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12794

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...is there a pic of the water bottle?

Edit -- nevermind. There's no pic.

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12801

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Coolhand wrote:
...After some of the wacky stuff in the Bicycling article on the MIT tunnel guys ...

What did you consider wacky in the article?

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12803

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SteveB wrote:
Coolhand wrote:
...After some of the wacky stuff in the Bicycling article on the MIT tunnel guys ...

What did you consider wacky in the article?


I think a few people here pointed some of the anomalous results they had, some of which seemed to contravene wind tunnel time spent by others. It was a while back though so I am struggling to remember. What I do remember was Bicycling + MIT guys = say what? Of course that could have been the fault of the author too.

Or I could just be getting old. . . .
Everything's coming up Milhouse!

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12809

  • jeremy
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yeah wheres the pics of this magic bottle?

Interesting business angle the MIT guys have. Create a name for themselves with the access to the tunnel data, then start inventing things and slap the MIT approved sticker on it. Clever.

Anyway, I'd still like to see the bottle. Maybe Interbike? Although I hope someone with a cellphone cam can snap a pic sooner.

j

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12814

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jeremy wrote:
Interesting business angle the MIT guys have. Create a name for themselves with the access to the tunnel data, then start inventing things and slap the MIT approved sticker on it. Clever.
j

Standard procedure at a technically-minded university these days. Ever heard of Sun Microsystems? )

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12820

Ashburn wrote:
...is there a pic of the water bottle?

Edit -- nevermind. There's no pic.



as they say on slowtwitch, "pics or it didn't happen"!!!!
I reject your reality and sustitute my own
Adam Savage

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12821

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Coolhand wrote:
www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/11504.0.html

Kim Blair, director of the MIT wind tunnel offered a presentation on aerodynamic research with bikes. He talked about drag and boundary layers and airflow, followed by how tunnel testing is accomplished at MIT and at other tunnels. When he got to the results section, many in the audience were taken aback by a water-bottle design from MIT graduate student, purportedly able to save 110 seconds over the course of a 40 kilometer time trial.


Hmmmm....


I call BS on the PhD guy - I could provide some data and pics, but really, it wouldn't come off quite right...

It's cool that they did get Max Testa to speak at that get-together though - I'd like to meet him one day. He seems to have a unique perspective on the practical application of power meters and elite athletes.
-kraig

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12824

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I call BS on the PhD guy



... I think ya'all need to keep in mind that this quote is from a Lennard Zinn quickie on VN, and given their track record, I think all bets are off as to the veracity of the quote.

If someone at a conference made reference to "5 monkeys had sex in a box," I would lay better than even odds it would show up on VN as "found money, that six bucks. "


.

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12825

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fredly wrote:
I call BS on the PhD guy



... I think ya'all need to keep in mind that this quote is from a Lennard Zinn quickie on VN, and given their track record, I think all bets are off as to the veracity of the quote.

.


point taken.

MIT has indeed been pretty vocal about being misquoted in it's relatively small amount of multiple, independent, media exposure blurbs.

I still call BS on the phd guy.

edit: more precise wording
-kraig

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12834

  • Mr. Boots
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kraig wrote:
It's cool that they did get Max Testa to speak at that get-together though - I'd like to meet him one day. He seems to have a unique perspective on the practical application of power meters and elite athletes.


Are you referring to his perspective on their application as a talent identifier? I saw him at a USAC summit in October, and I don't remember him mentioning much about PMs except for the Christine Thorburn story. He did have some interesting things to say about Vo2Max testing being not very useful, and also threw some doubt on the sledgehammer training approach - which kind of blew some coaches' minds.
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Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12835

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slidecontrol wrote:
as they say on slowtwitch, "pics or it didn't happen"!!!!


as they say on BTR, go back to ST
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Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12838

  • Coolhand
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kraig wrote:
fredly wrote:
I call BS on the PhD guy



... I think ya'all need to keep in mind that this quote is from a Lennard Zinn quickie on VN, and given their track record, I think all bets are off as to the veracity of the quote.

.


point taken.

MIT has indeed been pretty vocal about being misquoted in it's relatively small amount of multiple, independent, media exposure blurbs.

I still call BS on the phd guy.

edit: more precise wording


Amazing how many times they are "misquoted". Zinn isn't known as a guy with poor attention to detail either from what I can gather. I officially call Shenanigans! Someone get the brooms!!

Everything's coming up Milhouse!

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12840

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Mr. Boots wrote:
the sledgehammer training approach


What is that?

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12841

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kraig wrote:
He seems to have a unique perspective on the practical application of power meters and elite athletes.

What's unique about his remarks? He's finally coming around to what bike riders have figured out for themselves -- it's the functional ability to generate power that predicts success, not VO2max (which is what they'd been using for many years to pick candidates).

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12842

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Mr. Boots wrote:
He did have some interesting things to say about Vo2Max testing being not very useful, and also threw some doubt on the sledgehammer training approach - which kind of blew some coaches' minds.

Well, that's what I was alluding to above. Here's a guy who pursued a dead-end for two decades, while other people figured out a better way. Yet, he's the one on the podium trying to take credit for these advancements.

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12843

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Ashburn wrote:
Here's a guy who pursued a dead-end for two decades


I'm feeling really dumb this morning (not surprising since I've been training kinda hard 2.5 weeks straight now). What dead end was Testa pursuing?

About the other stuff...I didn't invent power training, cyclocross, or any of the other things I use in my job and give talks about. A guy with Testa's experience and background can come late to any table he likes, as far as I'm concerned. His perspective is always welcome, and has value. I was exposed to his stuff as far back as 1990, when one of his former riders became US Nat'l team coach and handed out stuff Testa had written. A lot of it holds up today.

Don't judge a person by one unruly client they may have.

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12844

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Coolhand wrote:
SteveB wrote:
Coolhand wrote:
...After some of the wacky stuff in the Bicycling article on the MIT tunnel guys ...

What did you consider wacky in the article?


I think a few people here pointed some of the anomalous results they had, some of which seemed to contravene wind tunnel time spent by others. It was a while back though so I am struggling to remember. What I do remember was Bicycling + MIT guys = say what? Of course that could have been the fault of the author too.

Or I could just be getting old. . . .


I think it was the gloves bit that people found a bit strange and hence put everything else said in the article in doubt.

I came across an interview (a podcast) with that dude who designed the bottle, however. First he said nothing about gloves in the interview, but spent quite some time on helmets, arguing that this could save more time than a much more expensive wheel, etc. He volunteered some quantitative data about aero helmets, something that no one else does. Finally, discussing bottle placement (the usual stuff: on the aerobars is faster, on the frame depends on type of frame etc.) he mentioned he is working on a prototype of an aero bottle to be placed on the top tube right behind the steer tube - an area, according to him, that could see a lot of improvement.

I'll let you know if I can find the podcast.

Nick.

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12845

Mr. Boots wrote:
slidecontrol wrote:
as they say on slowtwitch, "pics or it didn't happen"!!!!


as they say on BTR, go back to ST



whoa, down boy

while I was attempting to be tongue in cheek here, all we have to go on, amounts to hearsay (admittledly the sources are more reputable than many) but without some physical evidence of said bottle, what we actually discussing?

And who wants to start a pool on the UCI banning such a development should the claims prove true?
I reject your reality and sustitute my own
Adam Savage

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12846

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he mentioned he is working on a prototype of an aero bottle to be placed on the top tube right behind the steer tube - an area, according to him, that could see a lot of improvement.

That's what I've come up with for my calories bottle for long-course triathlon. I've got some prototype ideas, but it will basically be a bottle (or bladder) that can hold about 16 oz with ~1600 calories in it, mounted on the top tube behind the steer tube creating a nice fairing. Drink with a straw. The water bottle will be on the aerobars. No frame tube bottle; no behind the saddle. And -- no reaching for the bottle![/quote]

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12847

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Coolhand wrote:
SteveB wrote:
Coolhand wrote:
...After some of the wacky stuff in the Bicycling article on the MIT tunnel guys ...

What did you consider wacky in the article?


I think a few people here pointed some of the anomalous results they had, some of which seemed to contravene wind tunnel time spent by others. It was a while back though so I am struggling to remember. What I do remember was Bicycling + MIT guys = say what? Of course that could have been the fault of the author too.

Or I could just be getting old. . . .


FWIW, I don't know them personally but Herrman and Cote are known for being very focused, detail-oriented guys. I wasn't there but perhaps something got lost in translation to the magazine page.

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12848

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JV wrote:
What dead end was Testa pursuing?

They tested kids for VO2max and discarded the ones who didn't test high enough.

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12850

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kraig wrote:
fredly wrote:
I call BS on the PhD guy



... I think ya'all need to keep in mind that this quote is from a Lennard Zinn quickie on VN, and given their track record, I think all bets are off as to the veracity of the quote.

.


point taken.

MIT has indeed been pretty vocal about being misquoted in it's relatively small amount of multiple, independent, media exposure blurbs.

I still call BS on the phd guy.

edit: more precise wording


and to be even more precise, the thing I'm highly dubious of is the 110 second savings bit.

I'm sure someone can do the same thing I did with the whole Zipp dimpled hub thing a while back.

A big BTR "atta boy" to the person who I Huck Finn into doing this math!
-kraig

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12851

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Mr. Boots wrote:
kraig wrote:
It's cool that they did get Max Testa to speak at that get-together though - I'd like to meet him one day. He seems to have a unique perspective on the practical application of power meters and elite athletes.


Are you referring to his perspective on their application as a talent identifier?


I was basically referring to the fact that I value his perspective on working with elite athletes from the early days of the 7-eleven program until today (this based on my recollection of a story that Pete Penseyres recounted during our New Years day ride here in San Diego County).

20+ years at the elite level spanning the phasing in and out of lots of "gizmos" - that's a lot of time tinkerin' with things and trying to make things work, or whatnot. I value that, and I'd like to meet the guy.

Nothing really insightful in my words, just a reflection of what I was thinking...
-kraig

Re: Magic water bottle design from MIT shown in Colorado? 10 years, 8 months ago #12852

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Ashburn wrote:
JV wrote:
What dead end was Testa pursuing?

They tested kids for VO2max and discarded the ones who didn't test high enough.


What is the difference between an individual with a vo2max of 75-80 and the individual with a vo2max of 50-55?
-kraig

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