BikeTechReview.com

  • Increase font size
  • Default font size
  • Decrease font size
Home Forum
Welcome, Guest
Username Password: Remember me

plot of Lance Armstrong blood values
(1 viewing) (1) Guest
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values

plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25362

  • djconnel
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma: 2
Okay, so I couldn't resist.



Not qualified to comment on this, so I won't.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25363

  • SteveP
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 87
  • Karma: 0
Source?

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25365

  • kraig
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3285
  • Karma: 4
-kraig

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25366

  • Neal
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 420
  • Karma: 0
Hello Kraig and All,

Does he still sleep in a nitrogen tent?

Some other plots of sleep high - train low:

[url:19d8h2al]www.runnersweb.com/running/altitude_training.html[/url]

Cheers,

Neal

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25367

  • djconnel
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma: 2
That's a very interesting link! However, in that article, reticulocyte concentration, which is stimulated by altitude, is claimed to be a predictor of future hematocrit (or hemoglobin) increases/decreases. When the stimulus of altitude is withdrawn, reticulocytes drop, but there is a time lag before hematocrit and hemoglobin drop. In the Armstrong case, there is a sustained period of relatively low reticulocyte concentration, during which the trend is generally downward in hemaglobin/hematocrit, but within which there appears to be a boost in values (actually there's two boosts). Given the boosts, you'd expect a relatively high reticulocyte concentration in the June-July data set somewhere. Maybe it squeezed in between tests somehow.

Ask me about electron transport in semiconductors and I'll give an educated opinion: this stuff is beyond my expertise. I'm still recovering from the trauma of AP Biology.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25368

  • SteveP
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 87
  • Karma: 0
kraig wrote:

Thank you, Kraig.
Dan, why no plot of Hbg vs Retics? Hct is much more subject to hydration variables than Hbg.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25369

  • Kirk
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1102
  • Karma: 2
djconnel wrote:
That's a very interesting link! However, in that article, reticulocyte concentration, which is stimulated by altitude, is claimed to be a predictor of future hematocrit (or hemoglobin) increases/decreases. When the stimulus of altitude is withdrawn, reticulocytes drop, but there is a time lag before hematocrit and hemoglobin drop. In the Armstrong case, there is a sustained period of relatively low reticulocyte concentration, during which the trend is generally downward in hemaglobin/hematocrit, but within which there appears to be a boost in values (actually there's two boosts). Given the boosts, you'd expect a relatively high reticulocyte concentration in the June-July data set somewhere. Maybe it squeezed in between tests somehow.

Ask me about electron transport in semiconductors and I'll give an educated opinion: this stuff is beyond my expertise. I'm still recovering from the trauma of AP Biology.


Yeah, it appears that there is some degree of relative marrow suppression during that period of low reticulocytes.

Just two bits here FWIW...yeah, reticulocyte counts drop when EPO drops. When returning to sea-level from altitude, the quick drop in EPO causes not only a drop in reticulocyte/new RBC production, but it also quickly causes a preferential degradation of young but mature RBC's (a process called neocytolysis) in order to quickly correct for the excess red cell mass/hgb mass (which is a better measure than hgb concentration or hct). It looks like this red cell mass correction back to baseline occurs within about a week or so upon descent.

I think there is a thread here discussing some of that stuff...if anyone is interested.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25376

  • Kyle Shipp
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 128
  • Karma: 0
When reading the literature on altitude training, keep blood plasma volume changes in mind. Dehydration is not the only way to decrease plasma volume. Any short-term changes in hematocrit are almost certainly due to changes in plasma volume.
Winners make their own luck.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25378

  • kraig
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3285
  • Karma: 4
Kirk wrote:


Yeah, it appears that there is some degree of relative marrow suppression during that period of low reticulocytes.


Maybe this is related, cuz, what you describe sounds like a bad thing...but, what are the potential performance detriments that one might unintentionally invoke when trying to do the "altitude tent" thing?
-kraig

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25379

  • djconnel
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma: 2
It is true that also during the tour his ratio of hematicrit to hemoglobin is exceptional. That would indicate a tendency towards dehydration, right? Of course the reticulocytes (concentration of immature red blood cells) is low no matter what's plotted on the opposite axis.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25383

  • Kirk
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1102
  • Karma: 2
kraig wrote:
Kirk wrote:


Yeah, it appears that there is some degree of relative marrow suppression during that period of low reticulocytes.


Maybe this is related, cuz, what you describe sounds like a bad thing...but, what are the potential performance detriments that one might unintentionally invoke when trying to do the "altitude tent" thing?


As Kyle pointed out, altitude exposure decreases blood volume. It essentially makes folks pee off fluid (plus the increased respiration rate makes folks breath off fluid too even if in a humid area). This results in hemoconcentration in the first couple of weeks, which is a normal adaptation to altitude that shows up as increased hct and hgb concentrations, even though the total amount of red cells and hgb has not increased (and the trend in the literature is that the tents/houses do not improve these significantly even longer term). Being fluid and blood volume depleted has the potential to impair exercise capacity, more so in warm weather...since it can be hard enough already to have enough blood for both the muscles and for cooling via the skin. So at least in that sense, not to mention the potentially poorer sleep, training may be impaired for the first few weeks at least. One thing to consider though is that this effect is probably going to be fairly small since the net effect of the tents is likely to only be 1/3 of the simulated altitude (assuming at 8 hours a day is spent in a tent) since the entire day gets averaged.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25384

  • Kirk
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1102
  • Karma: 2
djconnel wrote:
It is true that also during the tour his ratio of hematicrit to hemoglobin is exceptional. That would indicate a tendency towards dehydration, right? Of course the reticulocytes (concentration of immature red blood cells) is low no matter what's plotted on the opposite axis.


I think it is hard to determine hydration status based on hct and hgb concentrations. On that theme though, hct and hgb concentrations tend to fall during multi-day events with high intensities in summer heat due to plasma volume expansion and/or increased red cell senescence.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25389

  • kraig
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3285
  • Karma: 4
djconnel wrote:
Of course the reticulocytes (concentration of immature red blood cells) is low no matter what's plotted on the opposite axis.


what does the UCI consider to be the "normal" range of ret% - I have no idea, just curious.
-kraig

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25390

  • kraig
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3285
  • Karma: 4
Kirk wrote:
As Kyle pointed out, altitude exposure decreases blood volume. It essentially makes folks pee off fluid (plus the increased respiration rate makes folks breath off fluid too even if in a humid area). This results in hemoconcentration in the first couple of weeks, which is a normal adaptation to altitude that shows up as increased hct and hgb concentrations, even though the total amount of red cells and hgb has not increased (and the trend in the literature is that the tents/houses do not improve these significantly even longer term).


OK, so this makes sense to me - same # of RBC's, but less "other stuff" will initially drive up hgb and hct values...

what I don't understand is the "plasma volume" deal...can someone help me on that one?

Being fluid and blood volume depleted has the potential to impair exercise capacity, more so in warm weather...since it can be hard enough already to have enough blood for both the muscles and for cooling via the skin. So at least in that sense, not to mention the potentially poorer sleep, training may be impaired for the first few weeks at least. One thing to consider though is that this effect is probably going to be fairly small since the net effect of the tents is likely to only be 1/3 of the simulated altitude (assuming at 8 hours a day is spent in a tent) since the entire day gets averaged.


so, it's possible that folks using tents/rooms for sleeping are actually impairing their ability to perform work leading up to, and ultimately impairing their performance on the day of their event? Seems like a weird risk to take (doing "cooked up" altitude tent protocols) from a probabilistic perspective when targetting an event to me. just my opinion, though.

Anybody here do this altitude tent stuff? What is your perspective/experience when it comes to the issues mentioned in this post and Kirk's?
-kraig

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25391

  • Kirk
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1102
  • Karma: 2
kraig wrote:


what does the UCI consider to be the "normal" range of ret% - I have no idea, just curious.


I'm not sure of the normal range per the UCI these days, but 0.2% used to get you a 15 day holiday and below 0.4-0.5% might have flagged one for extra testing.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25393

  • SteveP
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 87
  • Karma: 0
kraig wrote:
Kirk wrote:
As Kyle pointed out, altitude exposure decreases blood volume. It essentially makes folks pee off fluid (plus the increased respiration rate makes folks breath off fluid too even if in a humid area). This results in hemoconcentration in the first couple of weeks, which is a normal adaptation to altitude that shows up as increased hct and hgb concentrations, even though the total amount of red cells and hgb has not increased (and the trend in the literature is that the tents/houses do not improve these significantly even longer term).


OK, so this makes sense to me - same # of RBC's, but less "other stuff" will initially drive up hgb and hct values...

what I don't understand is the "plasma volume" deal...can someone help me on that one?

As Kirk states, there are two mechanisms for the loss of plasma volume on exposure to altitude. The first is based on the body's hormonally mediated regulation of homeostasis of both RBC mass and plasma volume. On exposure to altitude the regulatory system compensates for a perceived lack of RBC mass by dumping water (pee) to concentrate the blood (increase Hct), and also kicking up EPO to generate more RBC. The second mechanism (which is likely of less impact than the first, but important nevertheless), is the loss of water (plasma volume) through ventilory evaporation due to increase ventilitation at altitude, along with drier air.

Of course, sweat losses, GI losses, and rehydration effiency will also play a role in plasma volume independent of altitude.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25394

  • SteveP
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 87
  • Karma: 0
kraig wrote:
Kirk wrote:
Being fluid and blood volume depleted has the potential to impair exercise capacity, more so in warm weather...since it can be hard enough already to have enough blood for both the muscles and for cooling via the skin. So at least in that sense, not to mention the potentially poorer sleep, training may be impaired for the first few weeks at least. One thing to consider though is that this effect is probably going to be fairly small since the net effect of the tents is likely to only be 1/3 of the simulated altitude (assuming at 8 hours a day is spent in a tent) since the entire day gets averaged.


so, it's possible that folks using tents/rooms for sleeping are actually impairing their ability to perform work leading up to, and ultimately impairing their performance on the day of their event? Seems like a weird risk to take (doing "cooked up" altitude tent protocols) from a probabilistic perspective when targetting an event to me. just my opinion, though.

Anybody here do this altitude tent stuff? What is your perspective/experience when it comes to the issues mentioned in this post and Kirk's?


From my personal flatlander experience with using an altitude tent and also training and racing at altitude (n=1):
1) There is some sleep disturbance during the first few weeks to month of using the tent, as you are ramping up the altitude (ramping down the O2). This disturbance can be similar to true altitude exposure.
2) The renal/hormonal response to the tent exposure (peeing down plasma volume) is similar, but notably less than true altitude exposure. As Kirk noted, the response is somewhat proportionate to the exposure duration (assuming that one is maximizing the contrived altitude / minimizing the available O2).
3) I do not recall the above having any profound detrimental effect on my training during the intial period of sleeping in a tent.
4) I am not sure if the tent had any beneficial effect to my sea level power, as there are too many other variables.
5) I did not do pre and during tent exposure Hb/Hct tests. (doh!)
6) The gains from months of sleeping in an altitude tent in racing during acute (less than 24 hours) true altitude (for me typically at ~5000ft) exposure has been marginal, if at all measurable with a powermeter. Certainly the gains, if any, are much less than going up two weeks before an event for true acclimation. (YMMV)
7) After sleeping in an altitude tent for months and then moving to true altitude for more extended exposure (two weeks training followed by racing), the chonology of altitude adaptation is notably decreased. IOW, I adapt faster having spent prior time in a tent.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25395

  • SteveP
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 87
  • Karma: 0
Kirk wrote:
kraig wrote:


what does the UCI consider to be the "normal" range of ret% - I have no idea, just curious.


I'm not sure of the normal range per the UCI these days, but 0.2% used to get you a 15 day holiday and below 0.4-0.5% might have flagged one for extra testing.

I wouldn't expect post-altitude return to sea level to drop retics to these levels, so presumably they were using these markers for post-transfusion?

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 8 years ago #25399

  • Kirk
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1102
  • Karma: 2
SteveP wrote:
Kirk wrote:
kraig wrote:


what does the UCI consider to be the "normal" range of ret% - I have no idea, just curious.


I'm not sure of the normal range per the UCI these days, but 0.2% used to get you a 15 day holiday and below 0.4-0.5% might have flagged one for extra testing.

I wouldn't expect post-altitude return to sea level to drop retics to these levels, so presumably they were using these markers for post-transfusion?


Yeah, looking for evidence of transfusions and the use of at least larger doses of exogenous EPO bioequivalents since EPO withdrawal can potentially cause a low retic %.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 4 years, 11 months ago #27100

  • Kirk
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1102
  • Karma: 2
Looks like Dr. Ashenden is going on record (again?) as saying things in 2009 were funky. BTW, you don't "need" to be a hematologist to analyze blood values in the anti-doping context. You need basic hematological knowledge and specific perspective...basic medical training helps with the first part.

Re: plot of Lance Armstrong blood values 4 years, 11 months ago #27101

  • kraig
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3285
  • Karma: 4
Kirk wrote:
Looks like Dr. Ashenden is going on record (again?) as saying things in 2009 were funky.


Ashenden and Steffen would make a good team. Did they ever collaborate on anything?

BTW, you don't "need" to be a hematologist to analyze blood values in the anti-doping context.


This seems pretty clear, doesn't it:

-kraig

Last Edit: 4 years, 11 months ago by kraig.
  • Page:
  • 1
Time to create page: 0.88 seconds

Poll

Which type of tire is more aerodynamic?