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Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity
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TOPIC: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 11 months ago #26813

  • Fastskiguy
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The book...ok we're testing my reading comprehension here...but it's not exactly all low intensity stuff. A lot of it is in between your lactate threshold (or whatever they call when your lactate begins to rise) and anaerobic threshold (or whatever you max power for 60 minutes is). And then there's testing...that's pretty much max for whatever duration your testing for...so you get at least some "maximum efforts" in just via the testing.

It says it takes a long time to develop the aerobic system and only a few weeks to maybe a couple of months to develop your high end power. I'm mixing my books here for sure because I read the cyclists training bible, triathletes training bible and training with power so it's all a big blur LOL. In the bible books your testing after every rest week and for older guys that could be every 3 weeks during the whole base phase.

Ah, eh, periodization has been a proven concept for decades, right? Doesn't it just have to be right??

Joe

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 11 months ago #26818

  • kraig
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Fastskiguy wrote:
The book...ok we're testing my reading comprehension here...but it's not exactly all low intensity stuff. A lot of it is in between your lactate threshold (or whatever they call when your lactate begins to rise) and anaerobic threshold (or whatever you max power for 60 minutes is).


That type of intensity sits squarely in the "fill" range from my perspective. It definitely is not "raising the left" type of stuff.

Filling the right happens quickly, so, I think spending a lot of time doing this while simultaneously racking up potentially unnecessary fatigue in the process can be counterproductive.

There are many paths to the same level of fitness, though, eh?
-kraig

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 11 months ago #26820

  • Kirk
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kraig wrote:
Fastskiguy wrote:
The book...ok we're testing my reading comprehension here...but it's not exactly all low intensity stuff. A lot of it is in between your lactate threshold (or whatever they call when your lactate begins to rise) and anaerobic threshold (or whatever you max power for 60 minutes is).


That type of intensity sits squarely in the "fill" range from my perspective. It definitely is not "raising the left" type of stuff.

Filling the right happens quickly, so, I think spending a lot of time doing this while simultaneously racking up potentially unnecessary fatigue in the process can be counterproductive.

There are many paths to the same level of fitness, though, eh?


Yeah, it can take years to raise the left as far as it will go and achieve the most aerobic adaptions possible as capped by one's maximum O2 deliver rate...but it only takes a few days to fill the right. It takes longer to raise the left, within a season and year to year, if folks avoid higher intensities. IOW, if one takes weeks or months off from going hard and recruiting motor-units which have room to adapt or adaptations to retain, that means it will take weeks to months longer to get to the end point.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26833

  • Fastskiguy
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Did you see this month's Velonews (or whatever they call it now)....Go slower to get faster! They say your mitochondria get all fired up in a few weeks...how they know this I don't know.

I'm gonna try old school this winter and see what happens. Rollers, computrainer, and a DVR baby! Catch up with this thread next spring

Joe

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26835

  • Kirk
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I'll hand it to ya...I'd rather do some specific, targeted stuff for about 4 hours a week over the winter!

I suppose the authors don't talk about the motor units which aren't recruited when going easy...and how their mitochondria degrade.

Does VN's main publisher also publish those books spoken of earlier? Just wondering...doesn't matter though.

Best of luck riding! It's all about fun. Fun often = faster.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26840

  • Ron Ruff
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Kirk wrote:
I've heard through the interwebs that you are having some trouble on your longer rides these days.


Well... that is true. And shorter rides... and everything in between. And mostly heat... I couldn't handle a decent pace for long on a low humidity day if it was over 70 degrees.

But the volume/intensity of training hasn't been any higher than in past years... actually less. After 6 months of never going hard... I seemed to deteriorate as soon as I started going hard. My best effort in the weekly TT (~24 min long) was the very first one at the beginning of Apr. I should have gotten plenty of rest because a couple times in there my back went out and made me a near invalid for a couple weeks... or is that not long enough?

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26841

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Ron Ruff wrote:

In short TTs my power seems to be right where it was at the peak last summer. Surely I'll be able to improve that with some interval training...


and 7 months later...

Ron Ruff wrote:

My best effort in the weekly TT (~24 min long) was the very first one at the beginning of Apr.


Does this mean your approach didn't pan out like you expected?
-kraig

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26844

  • Ron Ruff
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kraig wrote:
Does this mean your approach didn't pan out like you expected?


Is there any other possibility?

Still don't have an explanation... but then, I haven't had a blood test or checkup in over 20 years, so it could be anything. As soon as the weather cooled off I haven't had any problems with long rides... but power still isn't great across the board.

BTW... the Velo(news) article claims that the primary benefit of base training is heart stroke volume... which maxes out at a low heart rate (60-65% of max)... and is best trained by high volume at that heart rate. It takes many years (like 10) before this reaches its potential. On the other hand cellular changes can be maximized in ~6 weeks of high intensity training.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26845

  • SteveI
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Ron Ruff wrote:
BTW... the Velo(news) article claims that the primary benefit of base training is heart stroke volume... which maxes out at a low heart rate (60-65% of max)... and is best trained by high volume at that heart rate.

If you search for more info on the relationship between HR and stroke volume, I think you'll find the above is pretty out of date, and more recent data suggest that well trained athletes increase their stroke volume all the way up to max HR:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7808245

I guess this might be reflected in increased W/bpm as HR increases? So if you're well trained in this sense, and your stroke volume is increasing as your HR goes up, you should add more Watts from e.g. 140bpm to 160bpm than from 120bpm to 140bpm.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26846

  • kraig
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Ron Ruff wrote:
kraig wrote:
Does this mean your approach didn't pan out like you expected?


Is there any other possibility?

<snip> so it could be anything.


my short answer to your question is: "maybe!"

my slightly less short answer to your question is: 7 months is a long time...and, I'm the guy who often parrots "There are many paths to the same performance." and also have been known to say "bike racing isn't a math problem"...so, yeah, I think "maybe" there are other possibilities...like you say, it could be anything, eh?

but, now, I guess at least we know that you were indeed intent/committed to trying to go faster by doing long tempo and easier rides for an extended period of time and that approach didn't work out like you expected.
-kraig

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26847

  • Ron Ruff
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kraig wrote:
but, now, I guess at least we know that you were indeed intent/committed to trying to go faster by doing long tempo and easier rides for an extended period of time and that approach didn't work out like you expected.


I did go faster by doing tempo and easier rides for an extended period of time. I didn't really expect that either. I was good enough to win a TT in March. What was *really* unexpected was that my performance *declined* shortly after I did some higher intensity training. Plus I couldn't tolerate even mildly warm temperatures.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26848

  • Ron Ruff
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SteveI wrote:
I guess this might be reflected in increased W/bpm as HR increases? So if you're well trained in this sense, and your stroke volume is increasing as your HR goes up, you should add more Watts from e.g. 140bpm to 160bpm than from 120bpm to 140bpm.


Thanks for the link... I wasn't having luck finding much.

I'm not sure if you can make a direct correlation between the amount of blood being pumped and the power output. But even if you could, it would depend on what the rate of increase in volume vs HR looked like.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26849

  • Kirk
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What mechanism do the authors suggest is responsible for SV increases in the absence of unmet cardiac output demand? In pathophysiology, maintaining adequate cardiac output drives structural changes. Ya know, the heart is stressed in some way. A heart beating at maybe barely over half of it's max CO sure isn't putting a stress on the heart...it's already adapted eh?

Regarding metabolic adaptations...yeah, it likely only takes weeks to months to maximally adapt a given motor unit if overloaded appropriately. However, the time-course of adaptation in the motor-units which are only recruited at higher powers takes longer given that appropriate overload can be limited by CO and O2 delivery. So yeah, it make take a few years for SV to max out in an adult...probably because of a gradual, decreasing returns elicited as a response to the accumulation of higher intensities over the years which also stimulate the need for increased CO.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26850

  • kraig
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Ron Ruff wrote:
<snip>


sounds like your experience has been similar to mine..."filling the right doesn't enable raising the left."
-kraig

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26851

  • Ron Ruff
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kraig wrote:
sounds like your experience has been similar to mine..."filling the right doesn't enable raising the left."


How do you figure that? Raising the right *did* raise the left... until I started training to raise the left... then everything declined.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26852

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Ron Ruff wrote:
kraig wrote:
sounds like your experience has been similar to mine..."filling the right doesn't enable raising the left."


How do you figure that? Raising the right *did* raise the left... until I started training to raise the left... then everything declined.


Well, i think the simplest answer to that is that you made some gains after fill'n 'er up for a long time with low work rate 6 hour rides that incurred a bunch of fatigue and whatnot (those gains could more than likely have been achieved via a different path, FWIW)...then, you hypothesized that that time-consuming fill work you endured surely had enabled subsequent "left" gains that would come with a bit of interval work...and, unfortunately, it didn't quite work out like that...so, that's basically how i figure it.

To borrow your words, setting PR's/placing better relative to the competition (or failing to set PR's/placing worse relative to the competition) "could be due to anything". But, you've got years of reliable powermeter data with which you can reference these sorts of things against, though, right?

FWIW, I don't consider the ibike to be reliable.
-kraig

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26853

  • Ron Ruff
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But the left gains came *before* interval work. And I never did a bunch of 6 hour rides... they were up to 6 but normally 3, and never more than 4.5 hrs when it got colder (Dec-Mar). And never more than 12 hrs a week... which was not fatiguing.

I set substantial PRs on every ride I've been doing for the past 5 years. The two times I did the ski road climb last fall I had a general headwind, and still set PRs. I use a Powertap for the TTs.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26854

  • kraig
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Ron Ruff wrote:

<snip>


You filled 'er up purdy good, it seems! However, I think your experience is still similar to mine, in that filling the right doesn't seem to enable raising the left.
-kraig

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26855

  • DMC
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I think the time course of various adaptations is a big factor in this debate.
In fact in the whole training puzzle, it is something that needs a good article to nail it down for the various systems.
I am of the view that the intense mitochondrial stimulus really doesn't take a lot of work to have good results.
But also that it achieves results so well that it's diminishing returns do occur quite soon.
I read once that 6 focuses weeks on Vo2 style efforts will get you pretty much as far as you are going to get on the mitochondrial density path. Is that maybe incorrect?

The confounding factor is that the High heart rate stuff is having a big cardio pulmonary effect as well as a muscular effect that maybe is hard to distinguish until after the muscle factors have been maximised.
It would be wonderful to have some simple tests that could show just what % of an improved performance were coming from what systems.

I saw one study showing that improvement when breathing 26% O2 air over 21% O2 air was much more in the better trained subjects than the untrained. Giving a clue as to what their limiters were and what systems were already at their best.
A clever physiologist should be able to come up with simple tests to differentiate the improvment coming from various systems.

I do think there is some truth in the previous training relevance to a low vol high intensity approach - not necessarily previous VOLUME training, but just previous training. I think there may be some structural factors that once maximised, no longer need to be addressed, perhaps being the main reason why its so much easier to get back to a previous level than to reach it in the first place.

My idea at the minute - Maximise your mitochondria first. Filling the right is in some ways very fast in some ways very slow to do.
Getting the cp240 up isnt that hard. Getting the CP1week up is tougher and a slower adapting system I think.

I feel the ability to hit a good cp30 is not exactly the same system as that which allows hitting that CP30 twice a day for 7 or more days.

Lastly - there does seem to be something about a lot of low volume hard stuff that make it hard to maintain beyond 4-6 weeks.
Has Anyone managed to try this approach for 12 weeks, 16 weeks, or more. With what effect?

David
Last Edit: 5 years, 10 months ago by DMC.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 10 months ago #26857

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The other part of the >20MP puzzle I would love to hear your thoughts on Kirk, (or anyone) is the time course of the signalling for cardiopulmonary adaptations induced.

Specifically how does 7 days of 2x 4 min > 20MP signal a cardiac adaptation differently to 2 days a week of 7x 4min > 20MP.

Could the efficacy of stage racing be less in the big kms and more in the huge frequency of hitting very high heart rates hour after hour , day after day.


David
Last Edit: 5 years, 10 months ago by DMC.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 9 months ago #26858

  • Kirk
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Sorry for the rather abbreviated reply on some complex questions...but here are my ramblings!

I think that enzymatic changes and/or up-regulation within pre-existing mitochondria can occur within hours to a few days if challenged. Denovo mitochondrial development is likely in the range of days to weeks with adequate stimulus. However, the ability to adequately overload a given motor unit is required, meaning that one must recruit a given motor unit enough, often enough to fully elicit maximal adaptation. This goes hand in hand with increases in cardiac output and layered motor unit adaptation…meaning that one can progressively recruit motor units which have not fully adapted in a sufficient manner for the most part only as “lower power” motor units gain adaptation and O2 delivery increases.

Increasing FiO2 only benefits folks in a meaningful way if hgb leaving the lungs is not fully saturated without increased FiO2. Less than full saturation can occur in a variety of situations including shunting, diffusion limitations, low atmospheric pressure, and/or short transit time in the lungs. In athletes at sea level, supplemental O2 is likely only beneficial at states of extreme cardiac output where transit time becomes limiting…but noting that most non-elite athletes do not experience this limitation due to not having critical cardiac outputs at all or at the time of O2 administration.

I think there are structural items that make it quicker/easier to regain prior adaptation than to build new ones…with some temporal limitations.

I think that repeating 30MP efforts (or whatever) within a day for multiple days in a row is primarily a function challenging event-specific, single-day demands. IOW, it’s not about some kind of adaptation from doing it day after day but rather, it’s mostly about adaptations resulting from the maximal, single day challenges. Ongoing day to day stuff is likely not all that trainable and probably primarily limited by one’s diet and digestive issues.

As far as doing weeks on end of high intensity stuff…breaks are good in my opinion…and it doesn’t take much weekly effort to transition into maintenance mode!

I think the time course of signaling is days to weeks for a given level of absolute output…things are dependent on continued overload. As far as the 7 days vs 2 days a week of the same amount of overload, I would say that there are benefits to the heavier individual days because of the larger single day overload. However, I think that over longer time scales they will likely both approach the same raise the left endpoint...with the exception being that the athletes doing the bigger individual days will have more capacity to tolerate larger individual day demands and successive days of similar demands.

Regarding the big kms vs the frequency of high intensity in stage races…I think the cumulative exposure to race intensities drives things, not the km’s!

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 5 years, 9 months ago #26868

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Thanks for that reply,
The progressive recruitment of motor units as lower power units adapt is really interesting. Again as regards the frequency or timing of the training doses.

Re: Interesting article on Intervals and Low Intensity 4 years, 3 months ago #27115

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I thought I'd update this thread on my experiences. Last year I trained for a 330 mile gravel race in April and the Branson 70.3 in September. Most of my riding was long, a little was fast, my best effort for speed was 324 watts for an 8 mile 2% grade on the computrainer but most of that benchmark workout were low 300's or high 200's....between 280 and 310, only two rides better than 310.

This year work has been just busy as hell. If I want any riding, it's pretty much 20 minutes in the morning. So I've been warming up for 5 minutes, punching it for 10 minutes, then cooling down for 5 minutes on the computrainer. Efforts in January started at 275-280 watts but last week I managed to go 340, 352, and 341 on Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday and on the one 8 mile 2% workout I've done this year I managed 340 watts. My lifetime best for that workout was 345 in 2005. Best effort for 10 minutes this year has been 363 watts.

Now....I don't know how my endurance is going but I did a 30K in 41 and change and a 33.3K in 46:09, both over 26mph. Faded a bit at the end but not too bad, certainly no more than usual LOL. I haven't gone over 26 for....well a long freaking time, that's for sure. Someday I hope to try a longer ride and see how the bod holds up....but for now it's fun to go fast

I've done 66 of these workouts and hope to bang out a whole bunch more over the summer. Overall I'd say I'm getting a lot better result from my time this year vs. last year so maybe there is something to this whole "lift the left" think after all.
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