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My version of the KW training plan
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TOPIC: My version of the KW training plan

My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5013

  • jkheycke
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Here's roughly what I've been doing since August:

1) 2x20s - not quite the Coggan version, since I do about 305 watts on the 1st and 295 on the 2nd, with 2 min rest interval. (total ride: 1hr)

2) 30-40 minutes with avg HR of 105 (max = 185)

3) Day off

4) 18 minutes @ 335-40 watts (total workout: 45 minutes)

5) Day off or 30 minutes at HR=105

6) 90-120 minutes @ 230 watts

7 ) Day off or 18 minute hammerfest (320+ watts) if I feel like it.

This averages out to 5-6 hours a week (truly about 15, if you count the time I spend on BTR and slowtwitch ). My threshold power is holding around 300 watts (I'm doing all training in the aero position). That's opposed to most of the '05 season when I was languishing at 270-280 watts under the skilled tutelage of a coach who had me doing 14 hour weeks.


-jens

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5017

  • kraig
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Are you having fun?
-kraig

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5019

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Go Jens! Best of getting ready for next year! I hope I get to see you out there!

Kirk

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5020

  • gtingley
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jkheycke wrote:
Here's roughly what I've been doing since August:

1) 2x20s - not quite the Coggan version, since I do about 305 watts on the 1st and 295 on the 2nd, with 2 min rest interval. (total ride: 1hr)

2) 30-40 minutes with avg HR of 105 (max = 185)

3) Day off

4) 18 minutes @ 335-40 watts (total workout: 45 minutes)

5) Day off or 30 minutes at HR=105

6) 90-120 minutes @ 230 watts

7 ) Day off or 18 minute hammerfest (320+ watts) if I feel like it.

This averages out to 5-6 hours a week (truly about 15, if you count the time I spend on BTR and slowtwitch ). My threshold power is holding around 300 watts (I'm doing all training in the aero position). That's opposed to most of the '05 season when I was languishing at 270-280 watts under the skilled tutelage of a coach who had me doing 14 hour weeks.


-jens


No strength work? How do you get stronger and build a base? No endurance work? I am not doing anything quite like you are, more unstructured, lots of ILTs and extended climbs at 50 rmp, seated and standing, climbing in the drops while seated at 50 RPM, 7-8 hour rides, climbing 15,000 to 20,000 feet per week, big power climbing, 300 mile weeks.

This is all new to me, a 180 degree spin on my routine from years past, much of an experiment.

This program has produced numerous masters TT national champions (I ride with two record TT holders and five natl TT champs), so I know it has worked for others.

I have a 400+ mile week coming up in December at camp. Yee haw.

I decided to forgo the trip out to Nats now that they moved it to PA, and instead tackle the USCF/SCNCA Cal championships 3k pursuit in Encino, Vandenberg USCF/SCNCA Cal road champs., and 38.5k TT USCF/SCNCA Cal champoinships in Palmdale for 06. Three shots at the jersey!

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5021

  • kraig
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gtingley wrote:


I have a 400+ mile week coming up in December at camp. Yee haw.



Are you having fun?

FWIW, here's one doodz take on base training:

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm
-kraig

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5022

  • Cathulu
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I'm just trying to ride here in wet coast, although the weather has turned for a bit of sun recently.

I think in addition to the 20 minute stuff, a good long ride is in order if you plan to roadrace and not just time trial. I try and get one ride in about 4.5 hour duration on the weekend.

I haven't started intervals yet although I will soon start my stair climb ritual - 20 floors x 8 to 9 times, once per week. I haven't been able to run all the way to the top but can get to the 15th floor before I run out of steam - at least for a couple of times.

I figure this is good for VO2 as it is a 2:00 - 2:30 time per climb at a high heart rate. Anyone else do stair climbs?

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5023

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kraig wrote:
gtingley wrote:


I have a 400+ mile week coming up in December at camp. Yee haw.



Are you having fun?

FWIW, here's one doodz take on base training:

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm


I don't do LSD rides slow the whole way, I do hard efforts, with slow efforts to the ride, in between and back, recovering in between efforts. I regularly average 300-400w cresting on the climbs and even 1100 w sometimes on the sprints even this time of year on our long rides.

Here is a typical Sunday for this time of the year, 7000ft of climbing:

Entire ride (129w):
Duration: 6:42:42
Work: 3107 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 205
Distance: 90.133 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 875 129 watts
Heart Rate: 0 254 114 bpm
Cadence: 29 136 61 rpm
Speed: 0 45.5 13.4 mph
Torque: 0 880 190 lb-in

Peak 5s (864w):
Duration: 0:06
Work: 5 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
Distance: 285 ft
Min Max Avg
Power: 853 875 864 watts
Heart Rate: 126 139 133 bpm
Cadence: 95 95 95 rpm
Speed: 32.1 32.6 32.4 mph
Torque: 759 778 768 lb-in

Peak 10s (841w):
Duration: 0:12
Work: 10 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
Distance: 560 ft
Min Max Avg
Power: 792 875 841 watts
Heart Rate: 119 149 133 bpm
Cadence: 89 95 92 rpm
Speed: 30 32.6 31.8 mph
Torque: 751 790 770 lb-in

Peak 20s (789w):
Duration: 0:21
Work: 17 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
Distance: 933 ft
Min Max Avg
Power: 653 875 789 watts
Heart Rate: 119 182 148 bpm
Cadence: 81 95 88 rpm
Speed: 26.8 32.6 30.3 mph
Torque: 673 790 753 lb-in

Peak 30s (598w):
Duration: 0:30
Work: 18 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 598
Distance: 0.243 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 96 875 598 watts
Heart Rate: 106 182 136 bpm
Cadence: 81 95 88 rpm
Speed: 24.9 32.6 29.2 mph
Torque: 92 790 571 lb-in

Peak 1min (445w):
Duration: 1:00
Work: 27 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 515
Distance: 0.307 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 184 655 445 watts
Heart Rate: 119 183 160 bpm
Cadence: 77 106 87 rpm
Speed: 16.4 26.4 18.5 mph
Torque: 171 658 434 lb-in

Peak 2min (391w):
Duration: 2:00
Work: 47 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 392
Distance: 0.377 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 273 547 391 watts
Heart Rate: 131 186 170 bpm
Cadence: 74 96 86 rpm
Speed: 10 13.2 11.3 mph
Torque: 240 536 387 lb-in

Peak 5min (328w):
Duration: 5:00
Work: 99 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 345
Distance: 1.337 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 547 328 watts
Heart Rate: 87 186 171 bpm
Cadence: 73 105 87 rpm
Speed: 9.8 36.2 16 mph
Torque: 0 536 321 lb-in

Peak 10min (293w):
Duration: 10:00
Work: 176 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 300
Distance: 1.818 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 149 461 293 watts
Heart Rate: 138 186 169 bpm
Cadence: 54 97 80 rpm
Speed: 9.1 13.9 10.9 mph
Torque: 142 475 312 lb-in

Peak 20min (239w):
Duration: 20:00
Work: 287 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 248
Distance: 3.473 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 37 392 239 watts
Heart Rate: 74 205 142 bpm
Cadence: 33 80 54 rpm
Speed: 7.5 15.7 10.4 mph
Torque: 58 680 379 lb-in

Peak 30min (242w):
Duration: 30:00
Work: 436 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 277
Distance: 5.559 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 664 242 watts
Heart Rate: 0 254 158 bpm
Cadence: 46 99 74 rpm
Speed: 0 18.8 11.1 mph
Torque: 0 812 281 lb-in

Peak 60min (200w):
Duration: 1:00:00
Work: 721 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: 230
Distance: 11.119 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 427 200 watts
Heart Rate: 0 230 140 bpm
Cadence: 29 102 51 rpm
Speed: 0 42.4 11.1 mph
Torque: 0 880 360 lb-in

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5024

  • klehner
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gtingley wrote:
kraig wrote:
gtingley wrote:


I have a 400+ mile week coming up in December at camp. Yee haw.



Are you having fun?

FWIW, here's one doodz take on base training:

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm


I don't do LSD rides slow the whole way, I do hard efforts, with slow efforts to the ride, in between and back, recovering in between efforts. I regularly average 300-400w cresting on the climbs and even 1100 w sometimes on the sprints even this time of year on our long rides.

Here is a typical Sunday for this time of the year, 7000ft of climbing:

<snip>



You were going to get back to us on the applicability of this ride to training for a 40K TT (and now a pursuit?)...
----------
Ken Lehner

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5025

  • gtingley
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klehner wrote:
gtingley wrote:
kraig wrote:
gtingley wrote:


I have a 400+ mile week coming up in December at camp. Yee haw.



Are you having fun?

FWIW, here's one doodz take on base training:

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm


I don't do LSD rides slow the whole way, I do hard efforts, with slow efforts to the ride, in between and back, recovering in between efforts. I regularly average 300-400w cresting on the climbs and even 1100 w sometimes on the sprints even this time of year on our long rides.

Here is a typical Sunday for this time of the year, 7000ft of climbing:

<snip>



You were going to get back to us on the applicability of this ride to training for a 40K TT (and now a pursuit?)...


The training I do, like I said, is in line with the fastest masters TT racers in Southern California, I know this because I have asked them about volume, strength work, etc. I am not training for the 40k TT right now, nor pursuit, I am just building a big base, getting stronger, building endurance. Same program Vic Copeland used to set multiple masters records and win multiple national championships.

Unless you are Lance, and recently retired, you are not going to win states or nats on 6 hours per week and hope to break 52-54 minutes in a 40k TT. For me that is upwards of 325-350w avg for 40k, and I know from experience that the strongest I can get with a focused 10 hours per work is about 58min in a 40k.

Here is what I was doing training for 40k last season:

9-10 hours work - 2x20 on Sunday in a 3~ hr ride, 1.5 hr on trainer of strength, 1.5 hr on trainer of recovery x2 days, 1.5 hr on trainer of 200w tempo.

No hill work, lots of time on the TT bike, and I never got faster than 28:20 for a 20k.

I will not be racing for three months, with A races in Jun/Jul, so plenty of time to sharpen the sword in the spring.

Everyone has there own ideas and annual plan, however without endurance and strength work in the winter, I never was able to improve my power output.

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5026

  • gtingley
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gtingley wrote:
klehner wrote:
gtingley wrote:
kraig wrote:
gtingley wrote:


I have a 400+ mile week coming up in December at camp. Yee haw.



Are you having fun?

FWIW, here's one doodz take on base training:

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm


I don't do LSD rides slow the whole way, I do hard efforts, with slow efforts to the ride, in between and back, recovering in between efforts. I regularly average 300-400w cresting on the climbs and even 1100 w sometimes on the sprints even this time of year on our long rides.

Here is a typical Sunday for this time of the year, 7000ft of climbing:

<snip>



You were going to get back to us on the applicability of this ride to training for a 40K TT (and now a pursuit?)...


The training I do, like I said, is in line with the fastest masters TT racers in Southern California, I know this because I have asked them about volume, strength work, etc. I am not training for the 40k TT right now, nor pursuit, I am just building a big base, getting stronger, building endurance. Same program Vic Copeland used to set multiple masters records and win multiple national championships.

Unless you are Lance, and recently retired, you are not going to win states or nats on 6 hours per week and hope to break 52-54 minutes in a 40k TT. For me that is upwards of 325-350w avg for 40k, and I know from experience that the strongest I can get with a focused 10 hours per work is about 58min in a 40k.

Here is what I was doing training for 40k last season:

9-10 hours work - 2x20 on Sunday in a 3~ hr ride, 1.5 hr on trainer of strength, 1.5 hr on trainer of recovery x2 days, 1.5 hr on trainer of 200w tempo.

No hill work, lots of time on the TT bike, and I never got faster than 28:20 for a 20k.

I will not be racing for three months, with A races in Jun/Jul, so plenty of time to sharpen the sword in the spring.

Everyone has there own ideas and annual plan, however without endurance and strength work in the winter, I never was able to improve my power output.


"Unless you are Lance, and recently retired"
To clarify, I meant a former pro/elite level rider who has a massive base and can get away with this type of training, think Steve Larsen or Kirk. It works for some, but you need to already have a base built, then it is just a matter of maintaining what you have. Much different than being a CAT 3 racer who wants to be as fast as a CAT 1!

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5027

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Gary,
what's your threshold power right now? TSS showing up as n/a on your charts ...

I'm not in the 4-6hr/week camp but not in the 25+hr either. I could not handle long rides at what appears to be recovery (Coggan Level 1).

regards,
Rick
GIZMO marketing specialist

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5028

  • gtingley
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rmur wrote:
Gary,
what's your threshold power right now? TSS showing up as n/a on your charts ...

I'm not in the 4-6hr/week camp but not in the 25+hr either. I could not handle long rides at what appears to be recovery (Coggan Level 1).

regards,
Rick


I dont do TSS.

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5031

  • Kirk
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gtingley wrote:
To clarify, I meant a former pro/elite level rider who has a massive base and can get away with this type of training, think Steve Larsen or Kirk. It works for some, but you need to already have a base built, then it is just a matter of maintaining what you have. Much different than being a CAT 3 racer who wants to be as fast as a CAT 1![/i]


Hi Gary!

I'm curious as to how you would define base. Kirk

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5032

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Gary,
Okay no TSS but w/o some knowledge of threshold power - absolute Average or Norm. watts is pretty meaningless. Or total ride kJ for that matter ...

what are we supposed to make from your posting? That these are long and apparently very easy rides?

rick
GIZMO marketing specialist

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5034

  • gtingley
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Kirk wrote:
gtingley wrote:
To clarify, I meant a former pro/elite level rider who has a massive base and can get away with this type of training, think Steve Larsen or Kirk. It works for some, but you need to already have a base built, then it is just a matter of maintaining what you have. Much different than being a CAT 3 racer who wants to be as fast as a CAT 1![/i]


Hi Gary!

I'm curious as to how you would define base. Kirk


Hi Kirk, I'm not a coach, but my understanding is that base is early season foundation/endurance/strength work to build the rest of the year's training on.

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5035

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kraig wrote:
Are you having fun?


Absolutely. I love blasting up the local hills at full power and blowing by people. Does anyone have fun going slow?

Maybe it's my particularly physiology, but this sort of regimen seems to maintain my power just fine -- and I have plenty of energy left to chase the kids around. What really ground me down last season was the 4 hour rides at 200-220 watts. The day after the 2x20s or the 18-minute hammer session, I feel great!


-jens

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5037

  • jkheycke
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gtingley wrote:

No strength work? How do you get stronger and build a base? No endurance work? I am not doing anything quite like you are, more unstructured, lots of ILTs and extended climbs at 50 rmp, seated and standing, climbing in the drops while seated at 50 RPM, 7-8 hour rides, climbing 15,000 to 20,000 feet per week, big power climbing, 300 mile weeks.

This is all new to me, a 180 degree spin on my routine from years past, much of an experiment.

This program has produced numerous masters TT national champions (I ride with two record TT holders and five natl TT champs), so I know it has worked for others.


This sounds exactly like what my coach had me doing last season, except that the long rides were only 4-5 hours. Most TTs are 40K or less. The endurance demands of a 40K TT are very nearly duplicated by a 2x20 session. How much more endurance do I need?

My personal experience has been that 50 rpm intervals are great -- if you TT at 50rpm. From my competitive weightlifting experience, I found that doing sets of 8-10 reps wasn't verey good training for doing 1 rep (and vice versa).

Your coach is highly esteemed and has coached a few people I know, so I'm not one to blithely wave off his program. However, I am content to see how it works for someone else. So I hope you'll update us as the season progresses.




-jens

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5038

  • teamcinzano
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We have masters national champs and whatnot here in NM who don't train anywhere near the volume you're putting in. If you want to do a really fast time in the 40km, come out here for the Record Challenge next September. My goal this year was to break 55min on around 10hrs a week, but I didn't make it-- did a 55:12 instead. Altitude is a beautifu thing. Then, you can tell all those SoCal studs that you've gone under 54min and hang up the hoops. My ride was around 275-280W, I think.

I'll venture a judgemental guess here and say if you've not been doing huge volume training like this before, you'll be getting sick, and then overtrained, and then sick some more. Seriously, I hope you're not going from years of training at like 10-15hrs a week to this huge base stuff (which it sounds like from your post), because it takes years for a body to adopt to that kind of time in the saddle. The old rule of never add more than 10% is a good one, including total volume for the year or any point in the periodization scheme along the way. This is even more important for masters racers, for whom recovery is more difficult.

Question for Jens... 12 years ago #5039

  • Tom_Anhalt
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4) 18 minutes @ 335-40 watts (total workout: 45 minutes)


7 ) Day off or 18 minute hammerfest (320+ watts) if I feel like it.


Are either (or both) of these done as 18min continuous, or are they done in interval fashion? Just curious since they're Coggan level 5...

If they're done continuous, I take it you have a local hill that takes about, oh say, 18 min. to climb?

Re: Question for Jens... 12 years ago #5040

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Tom_Anhalt wrote:
4) 18 minutes @ 335-40 watts (total workout: 45 minutes)


7 ) Day off or 18 minute hammerfest (320+ watts) if I feel like it.


Are either (or both) of these done as 18min continuous, or are they done in interval fashion? Just curious since they're Coggan level 5...

If they're done continuous, I take it you have a local hill that takes about, oh say, 18 min. to climb?


Would it be correct to say that 18 continuous minutes of any power output would not be L5 by definition?
----------
Ken Lehner

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5041

  • rmur
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I'd assume it's continous ... FWIW my 18min PB is 110% of FT power at the time and I think that's very close to what Jens' described.

It depends on how your P-D curve .... curves.

AWC baby

Rick
GIZMO marketing specialist

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5042

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jkheycke wrote:
What really ground me down last season was the 4 hour rides at 200-220 watts.
-jens

What really got me fit the last 2 years was 4-5 weeks doing 3-4 hours at 190-200 watts once a week. I did the intensity-based routine for a few months. When I finally got around to the medium-length rides at 85-88% of 60MP, my fitness leapt to a new level. I kept 2x per week threshold/tempo sessions going. This is on top of running 7-8 hours a week.

I just don't seem to get enough total training load out of short hard workouts. I also don't seem to get much out of long easy workouts.

This winter, I'm keeping the weekly 3 hour ride in my schedule along with the threshold work. I've capped out the last two years at the same fitness level, and I'd like to see if I can break through that ceiling.

I've also gone and back-calculated TSS points from last winter/spring. I'll keep track of TSS this time around and see if I can draw any conclusions.

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5043

  • Kirk
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gtingley wrote:
Kirk wrote:
gtingley wrote:
To clarify, I meant a former pro/elite level rider who has a massive base and can get away with this type of training, think Steve Larsen or Kirk. It works for some, but you need to already have a base built, then it is just a matter of maintaining what you have. Much different than being a CAT 3 racer who wants to be as fast as a CAT 1![/i]


Hi Gary!

I'm curious as to how you would define base. Kirk


Hi Kirk, I'm not a coach, but my understanding is that base is early season foundation/endurance/strength work to build the rest of the year's training on.


I think that riders who have been at it for longer certainly have a progression advantage. They have been able to rider harder (in the absolute) over time than a newer rider. One thing that I have learned over the years is that building/maintaining a foundation (or base) is not something which necessarily requires large ammounts of time. One of the reasons I wrote that article is that I often hear riders say that they don't have the time to put in the hours to build the proper "base" needed to be competitive (even locally) with athletes who train 12-25 hours per week (etc.) in whatever competition category or event style that suites them. That ideaology is everywhere and a myth. Unfortunately, it seems to me that it can deter people from enjoying the sport, or participating, at least to some extent. It takes less weekly time than most people think...especially when the demands of most athlete's events are considered. IME, less can be more.

A year ago, I thought I could potentially sqeeze a bit more out of myself with a somewhat unconventional methodology. I was actually surprised by how much higher I was able to move my personal performance bar, not just for 20 minute TT's...but full-on, multi-hour motoring. The question remains...was it the inclusion of a bit more targeted high intensity or the limitation of the lower to "tempo" intensity training? I don't know...I suspect it was a combination of both in partnership with frequency manipulation of both leading up to the events I targeted.

Have fun and best of luck with your season! Kirk

Re: Question for Jens... 12 years ago #5044

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Tom_Anhalt wrote:
4) 18 minutes @ 335-40 watts (total workout: 45 minutes)


7 ) Day off or 18 minute hammerfest (320+ watts) if I feel like it.


Are either (or both) of these done as 18min continuous, or are they done in interval fashion? Just curious since they're Coggan level 5...

If they're done continuous, I take it you have a local hill that takes about, oh say, 18 min. to climb?



Yup, it's continuous. And yup, it's an 18 minute hill. If I really hammer, I can make it under 17. But that takes about 340 watts, which I can't do on the aero bars.


-jens

Re: My version of the KW training plan 12 years ago #5045

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jkheycke wrote:
The endurance demands of a 40K TT are very nearly duplicated by a 2x20 session. How much more endurance do I need?

-jens

You don't need more endurance, per se. But your body might be able to handle -- and respond to -- more training stimulus.

Other thoughts...
I'm not one to say that we should do something only because elite performers do it. That is, I think most of us degree, a dangerous assumption.

However, if you look across many endurance sports, you will find ample evidence of people that have tried the "short/hard" approach. Lots and lots of them, from swimming to running to rowing, etc. But when you really weed through it all, you cannot help but notice that the overwhelming majority of athletes that rise to the top train a whole heckuva lot more than mid-single digit hours. You will also find that a great many individual athletes break out of a sticking point via increasing their overall volume and average intensity. While there are rare examples of low-volume success -- they remain rare.

American distance running went from annually producing world-leaders to producing nothing after it went through a near-total shift to the "hard-easy" program espoused by Bowerman and the Oregon crowd. The rest of the world kept following Lydiard with high-mileage programs, done at quality efforts. All of the top college X-Country programs have moved back into high mileage and are once again producing world-class distance runners.

It's also important to note that merely doing high volume isn't enough. It's easy to get it wrong and not show progress. It still has to be done right. Too easy and it all becomes pointless. Too hard and it doesn't work either.

There are always some athletes who are satisfied with their results at low hours. That's their prerogative, I guess. It all depends on what they want.
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