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Recruitment and training load?
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TOPIC: Recruitment and training load?

Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6165

  • Kirk
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I have a question about how people track traning loads.

How does anyone else try to get a handle on the amount of stimulus (and perhaps overload) imposed upon the motor-units which are most fatigue-prone (ie. the ones which need to be stressed in order to improve the “base componentsâ€

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6167

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Kirk\n[quote]I have a question about how people track traning loads.

How does anyone else try to get a handle on the amount of stimulus (and perhaps overload) imposed upon the motor-units which are most fatigue-prone (ie. the ones which need to be stressed in order to improve the “base componentsâ€

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6168

  • Kirk
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smcgreg\n[quote]Kirk\n[quote]I have a question about how people track traning loads.

How does anyone else try to get a handle on the amount of stimulus (and perhaps overload) imposed upon the motor-units which are most fatigue-prone (ie. the ones which need to be stressed in order to improve the “base componentsâ€

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6169

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Kirk\n[quote]smcgreg\n[quote]Kirk\n[quote]I have a question about how people track traning loads.

How does anyone else try to get a handle on the amount of stimulus (and perhaps overload) imposed upon the motor-units which are most fatigue-prone (ie. the ones which need to be stressed in order to improve the “base componentsâ€

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6170

  • Kirk
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smcgreg wrote:


Okay. Guess I misunderstand the question, so I'll just sit back and watch for a while until it becomes clear.

Steve


How do you track whether or not and how much you used/overloaded those motor-units? It is possible that many folks just don't.

Kirk

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6171

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Kirk wrote:
smcgreg wrote:


Okay. Guess I misunderstand the question, so I'll just sit back and watch for a while until it becomes clear.

Steve


How do you track whether or not and how much you used/overloaded those motor-units? It is possible that many folks just don't.

Kirk


Quite possible. Honestly, I imagine most don't even think about it in that context, and if they do, some might misunderstand the concepts involved. I suspect most are more likely to track time in zones/levels, which *could* get you to the same place, but I'm sure that's not what you're looking for. Now most who read this list may think about things in the proper context, and have a proper understanding of the concepts involved, so you may get some useful answers.

We shall see

Steve

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6173

  • Kirk
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smcgreg wrote:


Quite possible. Honestly, I imagine most don't even think about it in that context, and if they do, some might misunderstand the concepts involved. I suspect most are more likely to track time in zones/levels, which *could* get you to the same place, but I'm sure that's not what you're looking for. Now most who read this list may think about things in the proper context, and have a proper understanding of the concepts involved, so you may get some useful answers.

We shall see

Steve


Yeah...I think time in zone or time above a certain level are quite similar. By doing that I think one can get a good feel on at least the minimum amount of stimulus those motor-units recieved. There could be other ways of thinking about it though, so I'm interested to hearing if folks do or don't track that kind of stuff or do it differently.

Kirk

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6176

  • gtingley
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I just do what my coach tells me.

Tracking training loads is very challenging for me.

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6179

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I don't understand what you're asking. You use the term 'motor unit' which is an anatomic arangment of muscle fibers. Those fibers, regardless of type/size, etc. can be recruited and used at any intensity if duration is a variable.

It seems what your asking is more a functional question, like how much time is spent training at 'peri-threshold' intensity.

The method you described would track well the amount of time you spent at >95% of 20mp, and if that's the only intensity you ever rode at, would also track motor unit recruitment -). If you ever road at lower intensities, it would underestimate it.

But more importantly, why would you want to track this?

Scott

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6181

  • Kirk
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scotmart wrote:
I don't understand what you're asking. You use the term 'motor unit' which is an anatomic arangment of muscle fibers. Those fibers, regardless of type/size, etc. can be recruited and used at any intensity if duration is a variable.


Just asking how people quantify stimulus to those fatigue-prone fibers. They absolutely can *potentially* be recruited at lower intensities. How do people quantify that recruitment?

It seems what your asking is more a functional question, like how much time is spent training at 'peri-threshold' intensity.

The method you described would track well the amount of time you spent at >95% of 20mp, and if that's the only intensity you ever rode at, would also track motor unit recruitment -). If you ever road at lower intensities, it would underestimate it.


How do people know that a given ride at lower intensity resulted in such recruitment? A significant rise in perceived exertion after depletion of the motor-units normally recruited at lower intensities may provide a rough indication...but then again not necessarily due to other factors which could influence RPE.

But more importantly, why would you want to track this?

Scott


I track it in order to be more efficient in directing/managing the training which targets those fibers for the maintenance or improvement of the adaptations above. It provides a reliable way for me to get a good feel on at least the minimum amount of stimulus those motor-units received.

Kirk

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6182

  • Andy Birko
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While I never tracked the load, back when I had more time on my hands, I would plan such that I would get a little bit of all of the training levels every 7 days or so, no matter which phase of training I was it.

e.g., let's say I was working on threshold two to three times a week. I'd try and make sure that I was getting at least one L5 workout and some L6/7 work every week so that I wouldn't have to start from scratch when I switched to focusing on those aspects of fitness. When I switched to focusing on L5 work, I'd still do a 2x20 at least once a week. etc.

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6198

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Kirk,

I track 'effective' training time in Levels 3, 4, 5, 6 (don't do any 7).

Effective time = 30min L3, 15min L4, 3min L5, 30sec L6.

I don't do any microintervals or short RI L4 work so this captures my training pretty well. I do not look at the 2D power chart in CPS as this doesn't take time into account at all (IIRC).

As I tend to focus on TT's a lot, I actually group lower L4 with tempo work and stick to 0.95-1.05 IF range for 'hard' L4/TT/threshold.

As you mentioned 95% of 20MP, for me that would equate to 1.01FT so I don't track time above that explicitly. My L4 range covers the 0.95-1.05 region and then above that is L5 or L6.

I haven't a darned clue about which fibers I'm hitting. For instance, Friday evening I did a hard L4 session and a hard 4hr tempo ride Saturday. My legs had not recovered in the 12hrs between workouts so I'm sure I hit every fiber that I could access during that tempo ride (got dropped after 3:15 and I was just dying).

Rick
GIZMO marketing specialist

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6199

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Andy Birko wrote:
While I never tracked the load, back when I had more time on my hands, I would plan such that I would get a little bit of all of the training levels every 7 days or so, no matter which phase of training I was it.

e.g., let's say I was working on threshold two to three times a week. I'd try and make sure that I was getting at least one L5 workout and some L6/7 work every week so that I wouldn't have to start from scratch when I switched to focusing on those aspects of fitness. When I switched to focusing on L5 work, I'd still do a 2x20 at least once a week. etc.


I tend to do something similar and include different intensities within a week when possible (weather/time). When squeezed in terms of time or weather, I cut the tempo (or easier) work out (unless it just happens to get included within a ride which targets higher intensities) since the majority of the time during tempo intensity rides is spent burning calories, but not necessarily spent providing a metabolic stress which will increase power at threshold. I do target such intensities when building or maintain intramuscular substrate stores in the fibers used at those lower intensities if an event's demands suggest that adaptation would help. In the perfect world, I'd like to do one tempo ride to near exhaustion (1-2 hours or so) once every week or two in order to maintain those substrate stores.

Kirk

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6200

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I cut the tempo (or easier) work out (unless it just happens to get included within a ride which targets higher intensities) since the majority of the time during tempo intensity rides is spent burning calories, but not necessarily spent providing a metabolic stress which will increase power at threshold


I guess that depends on what you mean by tempo. You later said..

In the perfect world, I'd like to do one tempo ride to near exhaustion (1-2 hours or so)


In which case you seem to be using the word tempo like I do, equating to 92-94% of 1 hour power. If that's the case, you don't think that is providing metabolic stress that will increase threshold?

I would agree that when most people use the term 'tempo' they are referring to much lower intensities, more in the 80-85% of hour power range. In which case I would agree that that is really just a more time efficient way of doing LSD (and thus would be expected to provide the physiologic benefits you describe...though it would also certainly benefit threshold also, just perhaps not as efficiently).

Done at the 92-94% range though, 'tempo' rides most certainly provide metabolic stress that will benefit threshold. In addition, I find (and the riders I work with that also do similar workouts) the long duration provides significant benefits just in terms of mentally being able to go hard for long stretches of time.

Scott

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6202

  • rmur
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Scot,
in your ranges, are you referring to AP or NP?

rick
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Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6204

  • Ashburn
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I use two basic measures. First, I use T _ S _ S to keep a running log over "overall" fatigue. This, of course, doesn't track the overload question you are after, but as a multisport athlete, it is a very reliable measure of accumulating overall fatigue and recovery needs.

I have to dump files into excel to get the rest. I look at "key" ride files by ranking non-overlapping 5-minute, 10-minute and 20-minute portions of the ride. CP software only pulls the top one of each, and will give total time in a give power range. In effect, I am making bins that are 5, 10 and 20 minutes. I think 1-minute bins are too short for this purpose.

I'm happy with a 2-hour ride if I get at least two 5' bins at 105+% of 60MP, and 3 of the 10' bins and 1 of the 20' bins at 100+% 60MP. I also don't like to see more than 2 of the 10' bins below 90%.

If I do that ride twice a week, I get at least 40' at 100% 60MP, and 20' at 105+%, plus 2+ hours sitting right around 90%.

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6205

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Ashburn wrote:
I have to dump files into excel to get the rest.


yeah - i have to look at the actual files in order to figure out what I really did too.

It's an interesting question that kirk originally asked - lets keep the discussion on this point.

thanks.
-kraig

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6206

  • Kirk
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scotmart wrote:
I cut the tempo (or easier) work out (unless it just happens to get included within a ride which targets higher intensities) since the majority of the time during tempo intensity rides is spent burning calories, but not necessarily spent providing a metabolic stress which will increase power at threshold


I guess that depends on what you mean by tempo. You later said..

In the perfect world, I'd like to do one tempo ride to near exhaustion (1-2 hours or so)


In which case you seem to be using the word tempo like I do, equating to 92-94% of 1 hour power. If that's the case, you don't think that is providing metabolic stress that will increase threshold?


No. That intensity will only recruit motor-units which are already adapted and not necessarily any of the ones which need improvement (via the base components and MCT's).

Done at the 92-94% range though, 'tempo' rides most certainly provide metabolic stress that will benefit threshold. In addition, I find (and the riders I work with that also do similar workouts) the long duration provides significant benefits just in terms of mentally being able to go hard for long stretches of time.

Scott


That intensity will not necessarily provide metbolic stress. It may if it is performed for a long enough duration such that the motor-units which are fatigue-prone are recruited, but even then, one has to assume that the quality of the stress is the same as when they are recruited at their normal power (hence, most of the time is spent buring calories). That intensity may increase power at threshold simply by increasing intra-muscluar substrate stores though depending on the athlete's training status before including such efforts.

Kirk

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6207

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Kraig,
thought you might have dropped the filtering/censoring this year. Hasn't it run it's course?

How can we have a sensible discussion with that going on?

sincerely,
rick
GIZMO marketing specialist

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6208

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rmur wrote:
Scot,
in your ranges, are you referring to AP or power number estimator gizmo?

rick


I do find tracking T_S_S to be a usefull marker of training load, but beyond that I don't use N_P. I like to use AP because then I know what I actually did, and don't have to have a little part of my brain wondering if indeed I really *could* maintain what the N_P indicates I could.

My 'tempo' workouts usually take the form of 60-90 minutes of work done at 92-94% of 1 hour power (i.e. 2X30, 2X40, 3X30, 2X45, 1X60, etc, usually with 3-5mins rest to stretch, let the feet wake up from numbness, eat a gel, etc.). I do these at FI, so it's dead flat, and N_P is usually within 5 watts of AP. That being said, I often have sections during group rides where my 60min N_P is in this range (92-94%), but that 'feels' very different (much easier) than grinding away at a more constant power for that duration. And I've found that training that 'feel' is helpfull for me when it comes time to have to do such an effort (like a 40kTT, or a long breakaway in a road race).

My 'threshold' workouts are usually done at 102-105% of 1 hour power (which is about 20mp for me).

Scott

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6210

  • Kirk
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rmur wrote:
Kraig,
thought you might have dropped the filtering/censoring this year. Hasn't it run it's course?

How can we have a sensible discussion with that going on?

sincerely,
rick


I recommend that folks stick to measures whose identities are known. That may help folks communicate within the discussions.

Kirk

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6212

  • rmur
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I give up.
GIZMO marketing specialist

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6213

  • Kirk
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Kirk wrote:
rmur wrote:
Kraig,
thought you might have dropped the filtering/censoring this year. Hasn't it run it's course?

How can we have a sensible discussion with that going on?

sincerely,
rick


I recommend that folks stick to measures whose identities are known. That may help folks communicate within the discussions.

Kirk


...particularly since this thread is about loads at specific power levels and has nothing to do with any other measures.

Kirk

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6214

  • Kirk
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Kirk wrote:

That intensity will not necessarily provide metbolic stress. It may if it is performed for a long enough duration such that the motor-units which are fatigue-prone are recruited, but even then, one has to assume that the quality of the stress is the same as when they are recruited at their normal power (hence, most of the time is spent buring calories). That intensity may increase power at threshold simply by increasing intra-muscluar substrate stores though depending on the athlete's training status before including such efforts.

Kirk


...and depending on the duration used to quantify power at threshold.

Kirk

Re: Recruitment and training load? 11 years, 10 months ago #6215

  • Ashburn
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Kirk wrote:
... measures whose identities are known.

It's just math...as is a measure of "average" over a 1 or 5 or 20 minute duration. Why is one form of mathmatical equation better than another? I think our DNA is silent on the matter.

One of the first things one learns in advanced statistics is the limitations of the arithmetic mean as a source for plugging in a summary value or expected value. There are dozens of ways to compute a summary or expected value. Perhaps we should try Bayesian, or maybe a Markov Chain, or perhaps we should raise short-term arithmetic mean values to the fourth power, do the arithmetic mean again, then take the fourth root. That one seems pretty well "known" within cycling circles. A popular software program will even do it for us.

Another thing about using any form of mean -- it is meaningless without its being paired with a dispersion or variance measure. Where is your variance measure when you look at your averages? Do you compute it at all? There are ways of embedding the dispersion of a set of observations within the expected value estimator. Arithmetic mean doesn't do at all, but a ratio of an exponential method to the arithmetic method does it very nicely (well-known as "IF" in some circles).

A neat thing I've learned about fooling around with all those bins mentioned in my earlier post -- it never tells me anything more than merely looking at an exponentially-derived estimator, an arithmetic estimator and the ratio of the two. It's a lot easier to just look at a couple of numbers and gauge the load that way.

I look for a nice high exponentially-derived estimator, a nice high arithmetic estimator, and a ratio of the former to the latter of at least 1.12. That tells me that I worked hard overall, and that I worked very hard for at least an extended portion of the ride. What else is there to know?
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